Dr fLorene Cotel: Dare to Dream | Sharing Stories Changing Lives
Dr. Florence Cotel's captivating story begins with a daring journey through South America, where she and her ex-partner set out to cycle 12,000 kilometres, from the equator to the continent's southern tip, using only human power.
Dive Deeper: The Full Conversation with Dr fLorence Cotel
The Core Story
Dr. Florence Cotel's captivating story begins with a daring journey through South America, where she and her ex-partner set out to cycle 12,000 kilometres, from the equator to the continent's southern tip, using only human power. They carried minimal equipment, including a basic phone with no GPS. Their adventure takes an unexpected turn as they face daunting challenges, including a broken pannier and the realization that they're lost in one of the world's biggest deserts. With no reception, unreliable maps, and a compass that failed them, they have only one thing left: their dream of reaching the continent's southernmost point.
Time-Stamped Breakthrough Moments
Florence Cotel joins Karen Sander to dismantle the stigma surrounding mental health and redefine what it means to "dream." She argues that dreaming is a vital tool for preventing burnout—a topic she now researches through the lens of neuroscience.
Florence shares the gripping story of being lost in the Bolivian desert with a useless compass, explaining how having a clear end goal was the only thing that led her to safety. Whether you are an aspiring entrepreneur, someone struggling with burnout, or just looking for the courage to start something new, Florence’s insights on "momentum" and "resonance" will shift your perspective.
Time-Stamped Key Insights 💡
[00:04:00] – The Eight-Year-Old’s Dream: Florence’s background in Parisian public housing and her journey to the Sorbonne.
[00:06:45] – Burnout Prevention: Why progressing toward something you care about is a biological necessity for mental health.
[00:08:30] – The Entrepreneurial Leap: The mental challenge of leaving a stable academic salary for the uncertainty of a small business.
[00:11:30] – What is a "Dream"? Debunking the myth that dreams must be "huge" to be valid.
[00:15:20] – Learning to Ride at 25: The terrifying and defining moment Florence taught herself to ride a bike at midnight in Copenhagen.
[00:19:30] – Practical Advice for Dreamers: How to build momentum when you don't know where to start (the "Coin in the Machine" method).
[00:23:00] – Social Media & Filtered Reality: Florence’s "One Dream Down" campaign and why she refused to sugar-coat the sweat and dust of her Darwin-to-Adelaide ride.
[00:27:00] – Lost in the Bolivian Desert: A harrowing story of lithium-confused compasses and using the sun to find the way out.
[00:30:00] – The 170km Goal: Florence’s next decade-long dream: Qualifying for the Ultra-Trail du Mont-Blanc (UTMB).
Full Episode Transcript
KAREN:
I would like to acknowledge the Goringai people and pay my respects to the elders both past and present.
The Goringai people are the traditional owners of this land where we meet today and are part of the oldest surviving continuous culture in the world.
Podcast Intro (Narration)
NARRATOR:
Welcome to Sharing Stories, Changing Lives.
The host, Karen Sander, is on a mission to provide listeners with a unique podcast experience that inspires and entertains, offering insights and perspectives that may positively influence their lives.
On this platform, Karen has the privilege of interviewing individuals from all walks of life, each with their own powerful and inspiring stories you won't find anywhere else. The guests open their hearts and minds to share their life experiences, and in doing so, they celebrate the remarkable impact of real tales, genuine connections, and authentic individuals.
Listeners are invited to join Karen on this journey as she explores the untold stories that can truly make a difference in their lives.
At the Sharing Stories, Changing Lives podcast, we wholeheartedly believe in the transformative magic of storytelling.
To learn more, you can visit www.storyroomglobal.com and explore the private membership area, The Backstage Pass.
Episode Opening
KAREN:
Welcome to Sharing Stories, Changing Lives.
Have you ever wondered about the power of dreams?
Do you believe that by dreaming, you can bring things to fruition?
Our guest today is here to share how remarkable things can happen if you dare to dream.
I'm Karen Sander, your host for today, and I have an inspiring guest, Dr Florence Cotel, who is a neuroscientist. She’ll share how daring to dream has changed her life.
Hello, Florence, how are you today and thank you for joining us.
FLORENCE:
Well, thank you very much for having me, Karen. I’m very excited to talk about dreams.
Florence’s Background & Early Dream
KAREN:
You and I have talked about dreams before on the live show that I do. But look, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
FLORENCE:
Absolutely. I guess I will start at the beginning.
I was an eight-year-old child in Paris. I am French and I was born in Paris, and I had this crazy dream to understand how the brain works in order to be able to help people with their mental health.
I come from an underprivileged family. I grew up in public housing. My parents didn’t work. My father never went to school. My mother dropped out of high school.
So I went to school with quite an elusive dream as a child, but it has been the dream of my life.
I graduated with a PhD from my dream university, Sorbonne University in Paris, and I’ve been on my journey helping people with their mental health for, well, four decades now.
Mental Health & Stigma
KAREN:
And I know you’re very, very passionate about mental health.
In today’s day and age, mental health is not hidden in the closet like it used to be. When I was younger – which is a few years ago – it was something that you kept in the closet, so to speak.
FLORENCE:
Absolutely. And it’s very important now that we’re opening up and that we are understanding that it’s not that people are doing anything wrong. It’s not that there is a problem with them as a person.
Health means going through lows and through highs, and most importantly being able to recover.
So we really have to stop putting stigma on people when they are in a low and just accept that it’s going to take a bit of time to come back – but help them come back.
Talking about it is really important in enabling this comeback to much better states.
What Does “Daring to Dream” Mean?
KAREN:
Can you tell us a little bit about daring to dream?
FLORENCE:
Absolutely. I am hoping to talk a lot more about daring to dream.
What I work on at the moment is the prevention of burnout, and one of the things that we really don’t talk about enough is this importance of feeling that we progress towards something that we care about – in essence, dreaming and pursuing our dreams.
So, daring to dream really has a profound benefit on our mental health.
KAREN:
If you’d said to someone decades ago, “Look, you know, dream about something and it’ll happen, it’ll come true…”
Well, I guess for sports stars, that is what they do. They visualise what they want, the outcome they want.
But daring to dream can be very scary for all of us.
Can you reveal a challenge or an obstacle you’ve faced in your current career and how you’re tackling this?
Leaving Academia & Becoming an Entrepreneur
FLORENCE:
Well, as you said, I’m a neuroscientist and I have worked for prestigious universities in France, Denmark and in Australia. But at some point in my career, I decided to move away from that in order to pursue my big dream – just going on a different track but sticking with my really big goal.
At the moment, I am developing a small business as a speaker and a consultant. This really requires that I dare to dream this.
There are plenty of challenges that come my way. The first one that comes to mind now is really just the financial challenge.
When you are an employee of an entity, you know exactly the amount of money that’s going to drop into your bank account every week, every fortnight or every month.
When you’re an entrepreneur, you should definitely not think in terms of weeks, you should not think in terms of months. You should think in terms of maybe trimesters, quarters, years – and you need to accept and take into consideration uncertainty. That is a real big mental challenge.
Another thing that has been challenging, and is still challenging for me, is really to be able to adapt to everything that comes my way – sticking to my very big final goal, my dream of helping people with their mental health through neuroscience, but designing new paths, new tracks, finding new ways of reaching the same goals.
You know, we say that all roads lead to Rome. Well, sometimes I have to pave a new track so that I can reach my Rome.
Those are definitely challenges that I face on a daily basis, but realizing something that you care about is worth every bit of it.
KAREN:
And daring to dream about this – yes, the challenge of being an entrepreneur when you don’t really know where the dollars are coming from, you’ve still got to put food on the table and either pay a mortgage or rent and keep life going.
That can be a really, really tough thing.
Holding that dream in your mind – is that what helps you to keep going?
FLORENCE:
Absolutely.
When I find that it’s really difficult to find energy, to keep hope, to take my own hand and lift me up from the ground when I’m in a really bad mood, then I imagine what my life would be like if I wasn’t pursuing what I care about.
That’s not the life I want.
And I’m immediately back on track.
KAREN:
Yeah, that’s a very important thing you’ve said, because taking the other option can be much easier – but then you’re giving away the dream, the thing that you’re most passionate about.
FLORENCE:
Absolutely.
But to be able to do that, it really requires knowing what your end goal is – what you fight for, what gives you energy, what resonates with you, what matters to you.
In that sense, I will say that I am lucky that this came to me very young, but everybody can reach that. Sometimes you just need to be a bit more active in digging inside yourself to find what your end goal is.
Misconceptions About Dreams
KAREN:
In your opinion or your expertise, what is a misconception or a misunderstanding people have about daring to dream?
FLORENCE:
I would say it’s the definition of a dream itself.
People imagine that a dream is something that is huge. It’s climate change. It’s climbing Mount Everest. It’s running all over the world. It’s building an NGO that’s going to help millions and millions of people.
A dream – or something that you care about – can be anything. It doesn’t have to be big. It doesn’t have to be small. It doesn’t have to be anything else but something that resonates with you.
And I think that is the biggest misconception.
In my vocabulary, when I call something a dream, it means that this is something that I will realise in my life. That’s a really important definition to me of what a dream is.
A dream doesn’t have to be the giant conquering of the world. It can just be that little thing that you want to do.
KAREN:
And am I right in saying, Florence, that sometimes the smaller dreams lead eventually to the bigger dream coming true?
FLORENCE:
Absolutely.
If you have a really big dream in mind, I would actually discourage you from tackling the big one first. Just get yourself some kind of training going with smaller ones – create some steps, create some milestones.
If I just take my own story: when I was eight years old, I was not going to go and register at a university to get a PhD degree straight away. That seems really obvious, but that applies for any kind of dream.
There were lots of steps on my way to my dream degree, my dream research, and it’s the same for any kind of dream.
KAREN:
Yeah, and taking it back to childhood – with kids – you say to them, “What do you want to be?” and some of them will say, well girls especially, “I want to be a hairdresser,” and probably only a very small percentage ever realise that dream of becoming a hairdresser.
They move on over time, and your dreams can change.
FLORENCE:
Absolutely. And it’s really important to accept that and regularly assess what resonates with you.
It can be quite easy sometimes to get really excited when you’re facing someone who is truly passionate about something. When you see them really having deep emotions, a lot of joy out of achieving something, you really want to do the same.
It happens a lot when we watch sport on TV. Who does not want to play soccer since this year and the wonderful adventures of the Matildas in Australia?
You just have to make sure that it resonates with who you are and not just with that specific emotion that you feel at that very limited moment in time.
KAREN:
And also, not allowing yourself to get caught up in a dream that might be someone else’s dream for you.
FLORENCE:
Yes.
KAREN:
I think that’s a tough one.
FLORENCE:
It is.
KAREN:
Sometimes people take on offering you a dream: “Oh, you see that someone’s doing this, and you should do that.”
To me, I want to say it’s about staying in your own lane and staying focused on your own dream.
FLORENCE:
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Florence, Her Bike & Big Adventures
KAREN:
Florence, you love your bicycle. I think you love your bicycle more than you love humans. I’m joking!
What adventures have you and your bicycle been on together that have made a lasting impact on your life – and why?
FLORENCE:
I have been on a few cycling adventures, and I have two bicycles and both of them have a name, so it’s true – we are very close, they actually live with me.
KAREN:
And what are their names?
FLORENCE:
“Jube Rider” and “Jube Racer”. This is a long story connected to my very best friend back in France.
To share the adventures I’ve been on with both of them: Jube Racer is a road bicycle and we’ve done a few triathlons together. We’ve commuted in a lot of cities and we completed two Ironman – long-distance triathlons. I did a half Ironman and I did a full Ironman with this bicycle, which is a second-hand, nothing-very-fancy bicycle. But when you push on a pedal, you can still go far.
The second bicycle that I have is a touring bicycle, Jube Rider, and this one is one that I built about a decade ago. Together we went on what people would probably describe as the craziest adventure of my life.
We cycled from Quito, the capital of Ecuador that is on the equator line in South America, down to the very south of the cone of South America, in Ushuaia in Argentina. It’s actually the most southern point of the continent.
So that was about 12,000 kilometers of cycling through the Andes, through deserts, valleys, heat, rain, snow at some point, at sea level and at high altitude. It was a big adventure.
But to be really honest, this wasn’t the most defining cycling adventure in my life.
When I was 25 years old, I moved from Paris to Copenhagen in Denmark. And as many people would imagine, Copenhagen is a city where there are lots of bicycles. People really only commute by bicycle. Danes are kind of born with bicycles between their legs.
I was 25. I did not know how to ride a bicycle. I had never tried. And actually, this is not innate. You are not born with balance on two wheels.
Because I wanted to have friends, I very quickly understood that if I wanted to have a social life, I needed to be able to ride a bicycle to stick with people.
So I was very self-aware that this was not “the usual” – not being able to ride a bicycle. And I taught myself at night, hiding.
I used a rental city bike from Copenhagen. At the time, you could take those bicycles just like you take a trolley in a supermarket: with a little coin. You added the coin, unlocked the bicycle, and I was pushing it to my place at night, locking it there.
At about midnight, when really everybody is asleep in Copenhagen, I would just try to teach myself. This took a long time.
Cycling through mountains and big deserts was nothing compared to having this dream that I could learn to develop balance on two wheels – that I could be one of those people sitting on a bicycle without falling.
This has been for me a truly defining moment in my life because it showed me that what I can do is not defined by what I know today. It’s only defined by what I’m motivated by.
KAREN:
Well, look, at 25 to learn to ride a bike – in this country, many of us have been riding a bike since we were really young children. I think I was riding a two-wheeler bike by the time I was about five.
We used to ride everywhere until I got my horses, and then I decided I’d rather ride them!
But I love riding a bike, and the freedom of being on a bike, tearing down a mountain – which I have done – or down a hill, just going fast.
So I admire you, at 25, for really giving it a go, because it’s a completely different skill of balance.
FLORENCE:
It is, and it is extremely scary, because you’re old enough to know how painful it is to fall and how likely it is that you will fall. And I would say you need to fall to develop balance.
I had to accept being hurt. You never get very hurt and you heal very quickly, but you have to accept going through that and you have to believe that it’s possible for you too to learn.
Practical Advice: How to Start Dreaming
KAREN:
That’s amazing. If you could give some practical advice to the people listening today who are daring to dream, what would that advice be?
FLORENCE:
I think the very first advice that I give is about the definition of the dream, because I do meet a lot of people who tell me, “But I have no dream. There’s nothing that completely excites me. There’s nothing that I’m completely passionate about. I’d love to realise dreams, but if I don’t have any, how do I start?”
If you feel that way, it’s about exploring. It’s not about giving up and thinking, “I have no dreams. It’s too late.” It’s about exploring.
The more you explore, the higher the chances of encountering something that resonates with you.
And when you have that – when you feel that quite clearly and you have that feeling for more than just one day or a week – then just make any action towards it. Don’t wait.
That can be a very, very small action, but just build momentum, because it’s with momentum that you’ll be able to put one foot in front of the other and you’ll be on your track.
KAREN:
That’s really good advice, and it’s a little bit like you putting the coin in the machine to get the bike. That was your little bit of momentum – and wheeling the bike home.
FLORENCE:
Absolutely. It’s exactly this. The hardest of all was probably just to leave my flat and walk to this area where there were bicycles, because that’s the time where I committed. And committing is the toughest.
Social Media, Comparison & FOMO
KAREN:
In a world today where we’re bombarded with information all the time via social media, where we often see only the curated positive highlights of everyone’s life, this can lead to unrealistic comparisons and a sense of inadequacy – and perhaps stop us from dreaming and thinking we’re not good enough.
What guidance or advice, Florence, can you share to help people navigate these challenges and maintain a healthy perspective on their own lives?
FLORENCE:
It’s a very good point. It is becoming really difficult to see all these amazing profiles on social media and just what they show us of their fantastic lives.
Because of that, I think it’s really important to be able to stick with what resonates with you.
I run a lot, and I meet a lot of people who tell me, “Oh, I would love to run marathons like you do.” And then I always say, “But do you like running?”
“Oh no, no, I hate running – but I’d love to run marathons.”
And no, I don’t think you would. If you hate running, you’re going to hate running 42 kilometres straight up.
It’s really about connecting with what resonates with you, because what you’re after is the sensation of achieving something you care about. That’s what you’re after. That is an amazing feeling. Achieving something that other people care about will never make you happy.
KAREN:
Do you think that people suffer a lot of FOMO – fear of missing out – looking at other people’s social media and going, “Oh, I wish I could do that,” or “I wish I could be part of it”?
FLORENCE:
Yes, you’re very right. I think this happens every day.
What we should do about it is, instead of fearing, instead of over-thinking, just act on what resonates with you.
KAREN:
I think that’s a really important thing, and it’s so easy to get caught up in people’s stories on social media – but they don’t ever show the really terrible, terrible stuff, do they?
They focus on all the good in their life.
FLORENCE:
Yes, absolutely. There is this new trend now that people try to show a bit more of their struggles, of their training, their preparation – but it’s important to keep in mind that it is always filtered. It is always what they choose to show us, and it’s never a true reflection of the world.
KAREN:
I’m sure we’re all guilty of it – we look at the photos that we post first, and if they’re not photos we like of ourselves, they go in the recycle bin and not up on social media for everyone to see. It is a false sense of our lives.
FLORENCE:
That’s true.
And just to bounce back on the cycling adventures that I’ve done: last year I cycled from Darwin to Adelaide. This was a campaign called One Dream Down, to inspire young people to realise their dreams – to dare to dream.
I made a kind of contract with myself before leaving that included accepting to show everything on social media – accepting not to filter according to how I thought I looked.
So there are lots of videos of me really looking tired, being quite disgusting with a lot of sunscreen, mosquito repellent, dust, sweat on my face, on my body.
Not the right angle, because when there’s a lot of wind, you actually do not decide how you can hold a selfie stick!
I just accepted not to think of how I was representing myself, but to try to think only of what I wanted to share – and to post as quickly as I could so that there would be no time for me to overthink or regret or filter.
KAREN:
So you weren’t sugar-coating that adventure?
FLORENCE:
No. But as I said before, I was, like everyone else, still selecting what I was sharing – not selecting in a way of what would make me look good or bad, but more in terms of what I thought people may be interested in.
And sometimes you can be wrong in that.
Bolivia Desert Story – Dream as a Guide
KAREN:
For sure. One of the things that I wanted to share with you today is that I’m going to be sharing a story you told at The Story Room live event – your trip in Bolivia and being lost in the desert.
Can you just share a couple of the insights, and a couple of little snippets of what happened in Bolivia when you were riding your bike?
FLORENCE:
Yeah. So this was part of this long trip that I did in South America – this 12,000-kilometre trip.
At some point, it took me through the Bolivian desert, which is an altitude desert. It’s really an uninhabited place. Hardly anyone goes there. Only a few locals go there, driving tourists by jeep.
There are no proper roads. There are some tracks, and there are some tracks on dirt, and there are some tracks in deep sand. So it can be quite challenging just to cycle. Often I had to push the bicycle.
Most importantly, I wasn’t carrying any electronic device – meaning I didn’t have any GPS. I was with the person who was my partner at the time and we thought that with a compass and a map we’d be able to find our way through the desert.
Don’t trust the compass! The compass was useless because there was a lot of lithium in the ground of Bolivia and this completely confuses the compass.
Our map included far fewer of the reference points that we were using from our landscape to understand our location.
So after three days of what was supposed to be a nine-day trip through the desert, we realised we were entirely lost. There were no more tracks. We had no idea where we were on the map. We didn’t know what to do.
Reverting wasn’t really an option because we knew we would not be able to figure out how to get back to where we came from. We just didn’t know what to do.
But we had a very clear goal. We were heading to the most southern point of the continent – and that showed us the way.
We used the sun to guide us, to find the south, and we just followed it. It took eleven days instead of nine days to cross and come out of the desert.
When I reached a road with asphalt, I just kissed the ground because we made it out safe.
The big lesson that I got from that is that if you have a dream, it can show you the way out of any desert.
And we all go through deserts. Everybody. It’s not necessarily the one with deep sand and dunes and drought, but mental places where we feel we’re lost – they are deserts.
If you have a dream, if you have a goal, that will show you the way out of it.
KAREN:
And that’s a great message. People are able to go and see that full story at The Backstage Pass, my private members’ area.
But Florence, before we go – what is on the horizon for you in your journey of dare to dream?
What’s Next for Florence – Burnout Research & UTMB
FLORENCE:
A few things. I’ll talk about the professional one and the sport one.
Professionally, really daring to dream for me at the moment is connecting with as many people as possible to help stop the progression of burnout. My big neuroscience dream is really to identify the neuronal circuitry that triggers burnout and all the changes that occur in the brain in people who suffer from severe burnout.
So I’m still on the path of the dream of my eight-year-old self.
That’s the professional side. On the sports side, I have a new dream. It’s called UTMB – Ultra-Trail du Mont-Blanc.
I’ve done a lot of long-distance cycling and now I would love to do a lot of long-distance running. This is a race that is kind of close to my heart because it’s in France, where I come from. It’s 170 kilometres around Mont Blanc, which is the highest summit in Europe, and it’s a journey of endurance and, I believe, an inner journey.
That’s something I am now committed to, and I’m giving myself a decade to train, hit a few milestones on the way and hopefully cross that finish line.
KAREN:
So how long for that dream? Did you say a decade?
FLORENCE:
Yes, absolutely – a decade for me.
KAREN:
Okay.
FLORENCE:
I put priorities on things, and at the moment, professionally, I use a lot of my time to develop more research in neuroscience on burnout, and more talks to help people out.
So there’s also a long journey from running marathons – which is roughly my regular standard running distance – to running 170 kilometres with a lot of elevation gain.
You need to qualify and to be picked up in a draw for that race that I’m dreaming of. So I know that it will probably take a few years before I can actually get a ticket for it.
That’s why I have an end goal decided, but I’m flexible.
KAREN:
That’s amazing – that’s just such a huge journey.
Daring to dream, for you, comes almost naturally now. You actually know how to dare to dream and to follow your dreams.
Can I ask one more quick question? This research on burnout – is this another PhD for you?
FLORENCE:
No, because I’m at a higher level than a PhD student, to be honest.
So it would not be shaped as a PhD, but as scientific international publications. Yes, I hope so.
KAREN:
Ah, well, congratulations on that – and actually daring to dream to do it.
I know you have big dreams, and I want to say thank you so much for joining us today. I feel so blessed that I’ve met you, and I’m learning so much from you. You’re keeping me positive and you’re keeping me on track.
I hope you can help the listeners with that too.
FLORENCE:
I hope so as well.
Closing
KAREN:
We’re so lucky today to have had Dr Florence Cotel here to shed some light on the theme of daring to dream.
I hope this conversation has inspired you to step out of your comfort zone and embrace the power of your own dreams. It’s a wonderful tool to have in your toolkit to bring your dreams to life.
So thank you, Florence, again for joining us and sharing your insights. Your story is truly remarkable and enlightening.
FLORENCE:
Thank you very much, Karen.
KAREN:
Stay tuned for more inspiring stories – and remember, never stop dreaming.
Until next time, take care.
Outro (Narration)
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